Discussion:
The Veda Of Physics: Reconciling The Observer And The Observed
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FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer
2019-03-12 08:55:47 UTC
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The Veda Of Physics: Reconciling The Observer And The Observed

by Subhash Kak

- Dec 12, 2015, 12:30 pm


How can conceptions that came up several thousand years ago in India be
of relevance to modern physics?

It is increasingly accepted that Indian ideas have played a crucial role
in the development of modern science. We are not just talking about the
symbol zero, algebra and astronomy, but also inoculation in medicine,
the periodic table of chemical elements, and the field of linguistics,
to mention just a few.

But surely Indian ideas cannot be of any value now. The progressives,
like the colonialist followers of Macaulay in the 19th century, believe
that there is nothing in the Indian tradition that is worth anything. No
wonder, our school curriculum contains precious little about Indian
wisdom. A few years ago on a visit to BHU, I asked some postgraduate
students if they had heard of the Upanishads and they said no.

Anyway, how is it even possible for conceptions that came up several
thousand years ago to be of relevance now? The idea that Indian
knowledge might be of use to the modern physicist appears ludicrous and
delusional.

Thoughtful people are ready to grant Indian cultural contributions to
architecture, music, literature, fine arts, philosophy, and perhaps to
ancient science, but nothing more.

However there are some in India and beyond its borders who think that
Indian ideas have the potential to provide key insights for progress of
contemporary science.



The great 20th century physicist, Erwin Schrödinger, who co-invented
quantum theory, claimed in his autobiography that he obtained his
central intuition from the Vedas. This is a big deal since quantum
mechanics is the deepest theory of physics, and without quantum theory
one cannot understand chemistry, and without chemistry one cannot
understand biology and life.







Details of Schrodinger’s story may be found in my new book The Wishing
Tree and so I shall not repeat that material. In the words of Walter Moore:








“Schrödinger and Heisenberg and their followers created a universe based
on superimposed inseparable waves of probability amplitudes. This new
view would be entirely consistent with the Vedantic concept of All in One.”







But are the parallels or analogies between Vedanta and quantum theory
merely coincidental and nothing new is to be gained from Indian knowledge?







To answer this we must remember that physics as it evolved in the last
few centuries is exclusively about things in terms of objects and their
relationships. For example, the conception of the classical universe is
as clockwork. More recently, observers have been brought in an ad hoc
manner in relativity and quantum theory, but physics cannot, by itself,
explain them.

Now, in spite of all its great successes, physics is facing a crisis
since it appears to deal with only 5% of the observable universe, and it
must invoke an unobserved 95% of what is called dark matter and dark
energy to explain cosmological structures. But even after postulating
this, there remain serious discrepancies. For example, physicists are
freaking out due to a gamma ray excess at the centre of the Milky Way,
and then there are neutrinos that seem to be changing their form.

The phenomenon of entanglement in quantum physics, which has been
observed in many experiments, implies that objects that are far removed
in space (even across billions of miles) remain connected even though
there is no mediating agency. This action at a distance without any
explanation of the process underlying it represents a big hole in our
understanding of physical reality.

Then there is the problem of free will and intentionality which cannot
be explained either by physics or biology. Meanwhile, the view that the
biological organism is just a machine governed by the genes has had to
be revised drastically due to the discovery of the epigenome. It brings
the mind into the picture since experiments have shown that behaviors,
such as fear, aversion, or stress, can be passed down the generations.
We don’t know if the epigenome can pass down other aspects of the
personality.

The rise of scientific knowledge is a progression. We appear to be going
from what I call a B model of reality (for body in physics, or brain in
organisms) to a Bc model (with incidental consciousness or mind). The B
model assumes brain/mind identity, and it was the orthodox position in
neuroscience for a long time, just as it is the orthodox position in
physics. The Indian view of reality is a BcC model (where the last C is
consciousness as an independent entity).

Carl Jung through his idea of the collective unconscious tried to
provide an explanation for instincts and archetypes. But the logic of
this collective unconscious is not clear and it does not have the same
generality as the envisioning of consciousness in Indian thought.

The writings of Schrödinger are an excellent articulation of Indian
ideas by a scientist. Posing the problem of the split between objects
and subjects in Mind and Matter, Schrödinger says the solution could
only be based on Vedic ideas:

The reason why our sentient, percipient and thinking ego is met nowhere
within our scientific world picture can easily be indicated in seven
words: because it is itself that world picture. It is identical with the
whole and therefore cannot be contained in it as a part of it. But, of
course, here we knock against the arithmetical paradox; there appears to
be a great multitude of these conscious egos, the world is however only
one… There is obviously only one alternative, namely the unification of
minds or consciousnesses. Their multiplicity is only apparent, in truth
there is only one mind. This is the doctrine of the Upanishads.

The skeptic would just call it one person’s opinion that should not sway
our minds, given that it was written a few decades ago. So is there
something else going on now that compels a new outside-of-the-box look
at entrenched views?

The fact that Indian epistemology accepts consciousness as an
independent provides a resolution to the seemingly insoluble problem of
interaction between the causally closed worlds of matter with the world
of consciousness.

New results in neuroscience of free will indicate that the volitional
act spring from the unconscious and the conscious mind becomes aware of
it only later, believing that the decision was made by it. There seems
to be a delay of a few hundred milliseconds in which the conscious mind
embraces the action started by the unconscious and adopts it as its own.

In physics, which deals only with objects, sentient beings are zombies.
In it, it is not conscious will that causes actions at that time.
Rather, conscious will influences beliefs at a later time which
influence subsequent actions. Standard physics does not, and cannot,
explain the self who holds these beliefs. Since this self cannot be an
object or a process, we confront an enigma.

This brings us to the Veda of physics. By this I mean a framework that
explains not only the outer reality but also the observer. In the past,
the Vaiśeṣika school of Kaṇāda sought to do this in terms of atoms and
categories of which the observer is a part. What we need now is a
similar formulation that adds to the current understanding of the
physical world.

Some might say that the biggest challenge facing physics is the
explanation of dark matter and dark energy; I say it’s at the
foundations, to explain the observer and the self.


Bibliography

•Moore, W., 1989. Schrődinger: Life and Thought, Cambridge University
Press, Cambridge.
•Kak, S., 2015. The Wishing Tree: Presence and Promise of India. Aditya
Prakashan, New Delhi.
•Schrödinger, E., 1959. Mind and Matter, Cambridge University Press,
Cambridge.

Subhash Kak is Regents professor of electrical and computer engineering
at Oklahoma State University and a vedic scholar.
Robert Baer
2019-03-16 05:10:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer
https://swarajyamag.com/books/the-veda-of-physics-reconciling-the-observer-and-the-observed
The Veda Of Physics: Reconciling The Observer And The Observed
by  Subhash Kak
 -  Dec 12, 2015, 12:30 pm
How can conceptions that came up several thousand years ago in India be
of relevance to modern physics?
It is increasingly accepted that Indian ideas have played a crucial role
in the development of modern science. We are not just talking about the
symbol zero, algebra and astronomy, but also inoculation in medicine,
the periodic table of chemical elements, and the field of linguistics,
to mention just a few.
But surely Indian ideas cannot be of any value now. The progressives,
like the colonialist followers of Macaulay in the 19th century, believe
that there is nothing in the Indian tradition that is worth anything. No
wonder, our school curriculum contains precious little about Indian
wisdom. A few years ago on a visit to BHU, I asked some postgraduate
students if they had heard of the Upanishads and they said no.
Anyway, how is it even possible for conceptions that came up several
thousand years ago to be of relevance now? The idea that Indian
knowledge might be of use to the modern physicist appears ludicrous and
delusional.
Thoughtful people are ready to grant Indian cultural contributions to
architecture, music, literature, fine arts, philosophy, and perhaps to
ancient science, but nothing more.
However there are some in India and beyond its borders who think that
Indian ideas have the potential to provide key insights for progress of
contemporary science.
The great 20th century physicist, Erwin Schrödinger, who co-invented
quantum theory, claimed in his autobiography that he obtained his
central intuition from the Vedas. This is a big deal since quantum
mechanics is the deepest theory of physics, and without quantum theory
one cannot understand chemistry, and without chemistry one cannot
understand biology and life.
Details of Schrodinger’s story may be found in my new book The Wishing
“Schrödinger and Heisenberg and their followers created a universe based
on superimposed inseparable waves of probability amplitudes. This new
view would be entirely consistent with the Vedantic concept of All in One.”
But are the parallels or analogies between Vedanta and quantum theory
merely coincidental and nothing new is to be gained from Indian knowledge?
To answer this we must remember that physics as it evolved in the last
few centuries is exclusively about things in terms of objects and their
relationships. For example, the conception of the classical universe is
as clockwork. More recently, observers have been brought in an ad hoc
manner in relativity and quantum theory, but physics cannot, by itself,
explain them.
Now, in spite of all its great successes, physics is facing a crisis
since it appears to deal with only 5% of the observable universe, and it
must invoke an unobserved 95% of what is called dark matter and dark
energy to explain cosmological structures. But even after postulating
this, there remain serious discrepancies. For example, physicists are
freaking out due to a gamma ray excess at the centre of the Milky Way,
and then there are neutrinos that seem to be changing their form.
The phenomenon of entanglement in quantum physics, which has been
observed in many experiments, implies that objects that are far removed
in space (even across billions of miles) remain connected even though
there is no mediating agency. This action at a distance without any
explanation of the process underlying it represents a big hole in our
understanding of physical reality.
Then there is the problem of free will and intentionality which cannot
be explained either by physics or biology. Meanwhile, the view that the
biological organism is just a machine governed by the genes has had to
be revised drastically due to the discovery of the epigenome. It brings
the mind into the picture since experiments have shown that behaviors,
such as fear, aversion, or stress, can be passed down the generations.
We don’t know if the epigenome can pass down other aspects of the
personality.
The rise of scientific knowledge is a progression. We appear to be going
from what I call a B model of reality (for body in physics, or brain in
organisms) to a Bc model (with incidental consciousness or mind). The B
model assumes brain/mind identity, and it was the orthodox position in
neuroscience for a long time, just as it is the orthodox position in
physics. The Indian view of reality is a BcC model (where the last C is
consciousness as an independent entity).
Carl Jung through his idea of the collective unconscious tried to
provide an explanation for instincts and archetypes. But the logic of
this collective unconscious is not clear and it does not have the same
generality as the envisioning of consciousness in Indian thought.
The writings of Schrödinger are an excellent articulation of Indian
ideas by a scientist. Posing the problem of the split between objects
and subjects in Mind and Matter, Schrödinger says the solution could
The reason why our sentient, percipient and thinking ego is met nowhere
within our scientific world picture can easily be indicated in seven
words: because it is itself that world picture. It is identical with the
whole and therefore cannot be contained in it as a part of it. But, of
course, here we knock against the arithmetical paradox; there appears to
be a great multitude of these conscious egos, the world is however only
one… There is obviously only one alternative, namely the unification of
minds or consciousnesses. Their multiplicity is only apparent, in truth
there is only one mind. This is the doctrine of the Upanishads.
The skeptic would just call it one person’s opinion that should not sway
our minds, given that it was written a few decades ago. So is there
something else going on now that compels a new outside-of-the-box look
at entrenched views?
The fact that Indian epistemology accepts consciousness as an
independent provides a resolution to the seemingly insoluble problem of
interaction between the causally closed worlds of matter with the world
of consciousness.
New results in neuroscience of free will indicate that the volitional
act spring from the unconscious and the conscious mind becomes aware of
it only later, believing that the decision was made by it. There seems
to be a delay of a few hundred milliseconds in which the conscious mind
embraces the action started by the unconscious and adopts it as its own.
In physics, which deals only with objects, sentient beings are zombies.
In it, it is not conscious will that causes actions at that time.
Rather, conscious will influences beliefs at a later time which
influence subsequent actions. Standard physics does not, and cannot,
explain the self who holds these beliefs. Since this self cannot be an
object or a process, we confront an enigma.
This brings us to the Veda of physics. By this I mean a framework that
explains not only the outer reality but also the observer. In the past,
the Vaiśeṣika school of Kaṇāda sought to do this in terms of atoms and
categories of which the observer is a part. What we need now is a
similar formulation that adds to the current understanding of the
physical world.
Some might say that the biggest challenge facing physics is the
explanation of dark matter and dark energy; I say it’s at the
foundations, to explain the observer and the self.
Bibliography
•Moore, W., 1989. Schrődinger: Life and Thought, Cambridge University
Press, Cambridge.
•Kak, S., 2015. The Wishing Tree: Presence and Promise of India. Aditya
Prakashan, New Delhi.
•Schrödinger, E., 1959. Mind and Matter, Cambridge University Press,
Cambridge.
Subhash Kak is Regents professor of electrical and computer engineering
at Oklahoma State University and a vedic scholar.
Do you not know the Soviets invented everything first?
Including Communism, of course....
FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer
2019-03-17 06:56:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer
https://swarajyamag.com/books/the-veda-of-physics-reconciling-the-observer-and-the-observed
The Veda Of Physics: Reconciling The Observer And The Observed
by  Subhash Kak
  -  Dec 12, 2015, 12:30 pm
How can conceptions that came up several thousand years ago in India
be of relevance to modern physics?
It is increasingly accepted that Indian ideas have played a crucial
role in the development of modern science. We are not just talking
about the symbol zero, algebra and astronomy, but also inoculation in
medicine, the periodic table of chemical elements, and the field of
linguistics, to mention just a few.
But surely Indian ideas cannot be of any value now. The progressives,
like the colonialist followers of Macaulay in the 19th century,
believe that there is nothing in the Indian tradition that is worth
anything. No wonder, our school curriculum contains precious little
about Indian wisdom. A few years ago on a visit to BHU, I asked some
postgraduate students if they had heard of the Upanishads and they
said no.
Anyway, how is it even possible for conceptions that came up several
thousand years ago to be of relevance now? The idea that Indian
knowledge might be of use to the modern physicist appears ludicrous
and delusional.
Thoughtful people are ready to grant Indian cultural contributions to
architecture, music, literature, fine arts, philosophy, and perhaps to
ancient science, but nothing more.
However there are some in India and beyond its borders who think that
Indian ideas have the potential to provide key insights for progress
of contemporary science.
The great 20th century physicist, Erwin Schrödinger, who co-invented
quantum theory, claimed in his autobiography that he obtained his
central intuition from the Vedas. This is a big deal since quantum
mechanics is the deepest theory of physics, and without quantum theory
one cannot understand chemistry, and without chemistry one cannot
understand biology and life.
Details of Schrodinger’s story may be found in my new book The Wishing
“Schrödinger and Heisenberg and their followers created a universe
based on superimposed inseparable waves of probability amplitudes.
This new view would be entirely consistent with the Vedantic concept
of All in One.”
But are the parallels or analogies between Vedanta and quantum theory
merely coincidental and nothing new is to be gained from Indian knowledge?
To answer this we must remember that physics as it evolved in the last
few centuries is exclusively about things in terms of objects and
their relationships. For example, the conception of the classical
universe is as clockwork. More recently, observers have been brought
in an ad hoc manner in relativity and quantum theory, but physics
cannot, by itself, explain them.
Now, in spite of all its great successes, physics is facing a crisis
since it appears to deal with only 5% of the observable universe, and
it must invoke an unobserved 95% of what is called dark matter and
dark energy to explain cosmological structures. But even after
postulating this, there remain serious discrepancies. For example,
physicists are freaking out due to a gamma ray excess at the centre of
the Milky Way, and then there are neutrinos that seem to be changing
their form.
The phenomenon of entanglement in quantum physics, which has been
observed in many experiments, implies that objects that are far
removed in space (even across billions of miles) remain connected even
though there is no mediating agency. This action at a distance without
any explanation of the process underlying it represents a big hole in
our understanding of physical reality.
Then there is the problem of free will and intentionality which cannot
be explained either by physics or biology. Meanwhile, the view that
the biological organism is just a machine governed by the genes has
had to be revised drastically due to the discovery of the epigenome.
It brings the mind into the picture since experiments have shown that
behaviors, such as fear, aversion, or stress, can be passed down the
generations. We don’t know if the epigenome can pass down other
aspects of the personality.
The rise of scientific knowledge is a progression. We appear to be
going from what I call a B model of reality (for body in physics, or
brain in organisms) to a Bc model (with incidental consciousness or
mind). The B model assumes brain/mind identity, and it was the
orthodox position in neuroscience for a long time, just as it is the
orthodox position in physics. The Indian view of reality is a BcC
model (where the last C is consciousness as an independent entity).
Carl Jung through his idea of the collective unconscious tried to
provide an explanation for instincts and archetypes. But the logic of
this collective unconscious is not clear and it does not have the same
generality as the envisioning of consciousness in Indian thought.
The writings of Schrödinger are an excellent articulation of Indian
ideas by a scientist. Posing the problem of the split between objects
and subjects in Mind and Matter, Schrödinger says the solution could
The reason why our sentient, percipient and thinking ego is met
nowhere within our scientific world picture can easily be indicated in
seven words: because it is itself that world picture. It is identical
with the whole and therefore cannot be contained in it as a part of
it. But, of course, here we knock against the arithmetical paradox;
there appears to be a great multitude of these conscious egos, the
world is however only one… There is obviously only one alternative,
namely the unification of minds or consciousnesses. Their multiplicity
is only apparent, in truth there is only one mind. This is the
doctrine of the Upanishads.
The skeptic would just call it one person’s opinion that should not
sway our minds, given that it was written a few decades ago. So is
there something else going on now that compels a new
outside-of-the-box look at entrenched views?
The fact that Indian epistemology accepts consciousness as an
independent provides a resolution to the seemingly insoluble problem
of interaction between the causally closed worlds of matter with the
world of consciousness.
New results in neuroscience of free will indicate that the volitional
act spring from the unconscious and the conscious mind becomes aware
of it only later, believing that the decision was made by it. There
seems to be a delay of a few hundred milliseconds in which the
conscious mind embraces the action started by the unconscious and
adopts it as its own.
In physics, which deals only with objects, sentient beings are
zombies. In it, it is not conscious will that causes actions at that
time. Rather, conscious will influences beliefs at a later time which
influence subsequent actions. Standard physics does not, and cannot,
explain the self who holds these beliefs. Since this self cannot be an
object or a process, we confront an enigma.
This brings us to the Veda of physics. By this I mean a framework that
explains not only the outer reality but also the observer. In the
past, the Vaiśeṣika school of Kaṇāda sought to do this in terms of
atoms and categories of which the observer is a part. What we need now
is a similar formulation that adds to the current understanding of the
physical world.
Some might say that the biggest challenge facing physics is the
explanation of dark matter and dark energy; I say it’s at the
foundations, to explain the observer and the self.
Bibliography
•Moore, W., 1989. Schrődinger: Life and Thought, Cambridge University
Press, Cambridge.
•Kak, S., 2015. The Wishing Tree: Presence and Promise of India.
Aditya Prakashan, New Delhi.
•Schrödinger, E., 1959. Mind and Matter, Cambridge University Press,
Cambridge.
Subhash Kak is Regents professor of electrical and computer
engineering at Oklahoma State University and a vedic scholar.
  Do you not know the Soviets invented everything first?
  Including Communism, of course....
DO YOU NOT KNOW that "America" and by extension "Western White
Christians" are the "Center Of The Universe"?
Robert Baer
2019-03-17 07:32:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer
Post by FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer
https://swarajyamag.com/books/the-veda-of-physics-reconciling-the-observer-and-the-observed
The Veda Of Physics: Reconciling The Observer And The Observed
by  Subhash Kak
  -  Dec 12, 2015, 12:30 pm
How can conceptions that came up several thousand years ago in India
be of relevance to modern physics?
It is increasingly accepted that Indian ideas have played a crucial
role in the development of modern science. We are not just talking
about the symbol zero, algebra and astronomy, but also inoculation in
medicine, the periodic table of chemical elements, and the field of
linguistics, to mention just a few.
But surely Indian ideas cannot be of any value now. The progressives,
like the colonialist followers of Macaulay in the 19th century,
believe that there is nothing in the Indian tradition that is worth
anything. No wonder, our school curriculum contains precious little
about Indian wisdom. A few years ago on a visit to BHU, I asked some
postgraduate students if they had heard of the Upanishads and they
said no.
Anyway, how is it even possible for conceptions that came up several
thousand years ago to be of relevance now? The idea that Indian
knowledge might be of use to the modern physicist appears ludicrous
and delusional.
Thoughtful people are ready to grant Indian cultural contributions to
architecture, music, literature, fine arts, philosophy, and perhaps
to ancient science, but nothing more.
However there are some in India and beyond its borders who think that
Indian ideas have the potential to provide key insights for progress
of contemporary science.
The great 20th century physicist, Erwin Schrödinger, who co-invented
quantum theory, claimed in his autobiography that he obtained his
central intuition from the Vedas. This is a big deal since quantum
mechanics is the deepest theory of physics, and without quantum
theory one cannot understand chemistry, and without chemistry one
cannot understand biology and life.
Details of Schrodinger’s story may be found in my new book The
Wishing Tree and so I shall not repeat that material. In the words of
“Schrödinger and Heisenberg and their followers created a universe
based on superimposed inseparable waves of probability amplitudes.
This new view would be entirely consistent with the Vedantic concept
of All in One.”
But are the parallels or analogies between Vedanta and quantum theory
merely coincidental and nothing new is to be gained from Indian knowledge?
To answer this we must remember that physics as it evolved in the
last few centuries is exclusively about things in terms of objects
and their relationships. For example, the conception of the classical
universe is as clockwork. More recently, observers have been brought
in an ad hoc manner in relativity and quantum theory, but physics
cannot, by itself, explain them.
Now, in spite of all its great successes, physics is facing a crisis
since it appears to deal with only 5% of the observable universe, and
it must invoke an unobserved 95% of what is called dark matter and
dark energy to explain cosmological structures. But even after
postulating this, there remain serious discrepancies. For example,
physicists are freaking out due to a gamma ray excess at the centre
of the Milky Way, and then there are neutrinos that seem to be
changing their form.
The phenomenon of entanglement in quantum physics, which has been
observed in many experiments, implies that objects that are far
removed in space (even across billions of miles) remain connected
even though there is no mediating agency. This action at a distance
without any explanation of the process underlying it represents a big
hole in our understanding of physical reality.
Then there is the problem of free will and intentionality which
cannot be explained either by physics or biology. Meanwhile, the view
that the biological organism is just a machine governed by the genes
has had to be revised drastically due to the discovery of the
epigenome. It brings the mind into the picture since experiments have
shown that behaviors, such as fear, aversion, or stress, can be
passed down the generations. We don’t know if the epigenome can pass
down other aspects of the personality.
The rise of scientific knowledge is a progression. We appear to be
going from what I call a B model of reality (for body in physics, or
brain in organisms) to a Bc model (with incidental consciousness or
mind). The B model assumes brain/mind identity, and it was the
orthodox position in neuroscience for a long time, just as it is the
orthodox position in physics. The Indian view of reality is a BcC
model (where the last C is consciousness as an independent entity).
Carl Jung through his idea of the collective unconscious tried to
provide an explanation for instincts and archetypes. But the logic of
this collective unconscious is not clear and it does not have the
same generality as the envisioning of consciousness in Indian thought.
The writings of Schrödinger are an excellent articulation of Indian
ideas by a scientist. Posing the problem of the split between objects
and subjects in Mind and Matter, Schrödinger says the solution could
The reason why our sentient, percipient and thinking ego is met
nowhere within our scientific world picture can easily be indicated
in seven words: because it is itself that world picture. It is
identical with the whole and therefore cannot be contained in it as a
part of it. But, of course, here we knock against the arithmetical
paradox; there appears to be a great multitude of these conscious
egos, the world is however only one… There is obviously only one
alternative, namely the unification of minds or consciousnesses.
Their multiplicity is only apparent, in truth there is only one mind.
This is the doctrine of the Upanishads.
The skeptic would just call it one person’s opinion that should not
sway our minds, given that it was written a few decades ago. So is
there something else going on now that compels a new
outside-of-the-box look at entrenched views?
The fact that Indian epistemology accepts consciousness as an
independent provides a resolution to the seemingly insoluble problem
of interaction between the causally closed worlds of matter with the
world of consciousness.
New results in neuroscience of free will indicate that the volitional
act spring from the unconscious and the conscious mind becomes aware
of it only later, believing that the decision was made by it. There
seems to be a delay of a few hundred milliseconds in which the
conscious mind embraces the action started by the unconscious and
adopts it as its own.
In physics, which deals only with objects, sentient beings are
zombies. In it, it is not conscious will that causes actions at that
time. Rather, conscious will influences beliefs at a later time which
influence subsequent actions. Standard physics does not, and cannot,
explain the self who holds these beliefs. Since this self cannot be
an object or a process, we confront an enigma.
This brings us to the Veda of physics. By this I mean a framework
that explains not only the outer reality but also the observer. In
the past, the Vaiśeṣika school of Kaṇāda sought to do this in terms
of atoms and categories of which the observer is a part. What we need
now is a similar formulation that adds to the current understanding
of the physical world.
Some might say that the biggest challenge facing physics is the
explanation of dark matter and dark energy; I say it’s at the
foundations, to explain the observer and the self.
Bibliography
•Moore, W., 1989. Schrődinger: Life and Thought, Cambridge University
Press, Cambridge.
•Kak, S., 2015. The Wishing Tree: Presence and Promise of India.
Aditya Prakashan, New Delhi.
•Schrödinger, E., 1959. Mind and Matter, Cambridge University Press,
Cambridge.
Subhash Kak is Regents professor of electrical and computer
engineering at Oklahoma State University and a vedic scholar.
   Do you not know the Soviets invented everything first?
   Including Communism, of course....
DO YOU NOT KNOW that "America" and by extension "Western White
Christians" are the "Center Of The Universe"?
Absolutely!
That is because they *created* it.


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FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer
2019-03-17 18:56:09 UTC
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https://swarajyamag.com/books/the-veda-of-physics-reconciling-the-observer-and-the-observed
The Veda Of Physics: Reconciling The Observer And The Observed
by  Subhash Kak
  -  Dec 12, 2015, 12:30 pm
How can conceptions that came up several thousand years ago in India
be of relevance to modern physics?
It is increasingly accepted that Indian ideas have played a crucial
role in the development of modern science. We are not just talking
about the symbol zero, algebra and astronomy, but also inoculation
in medicine, the periodic table of chemical elements, and the field
of linguistics, to mention just a few.
But surely Indian ideas cannot be of any value now. The
progressives, like the colonialist followers of Macaulay in the 19th
century, believe that there is nothing in the Indian tradition that
is worth anything. No wonder, our school curriculum contains
precious little about Indian wisdom. A few years ago on a visit to
BHU, I asked some postgraduate students if they had heard of the
Upanishads and they said no.
Anyway, how is it even possible for conceptions that came up several
thousand years ago to be of relevance now? The idea that Indian
knowledge might be of use to the modern physicist appears ludicrous
and delusional.
Thoughtful people are ready to grant Indian cultural contributions
to architecture, music, literature, fine arts, philosophy, and
perhaps to ancient science, but nothing more.
However there are some in India and beyond its borders who think
that Indian ideas have the potential to provide key insights for
progress of contemporary science.
The great 20th century physicist, Erwin Schrödinger, who co-invented
quantum theory, claimed in his autobiography that he obtained his
central intuition from the Vedas. This is a big deal since quantum
mechanics is the deepest theory of physics, and without quantum
theory one cannot understand chemistry, and without chemistry one
cannot understand biology and life.
Details of Schrodinger’s story may be found in my new book The
Wishing Tree and so I shall not repeat that material. In the words
“Schrödinger and Heisenberg and their followers created a universe
based on superimposed inseparable waves of probability amplitudes.
This new view would be entirely consistent with the Vedantic concept
of All in One.”
But are the parallels or analogies between Vedanta and quantum
theory merely coincidental and nothing new is to be gained from
Indian knowledge?
To answer this we must remember that physics as it evolved in the
last few centuries is exclusively about things in terms of objects
and their relationships. For example, the conception of the
classical universe is as clockwork. More recently, observers have
been brought in an ad hoc manner in relativity and quantum theory,
but physics cannot, by itself, explain them.
Now, in spite of all its great successes, physics is facing a crisis
since it appears to deal with only 5% of the observable universe,
and it must invoke an unobserved 95% of what is called dark matter
and dark energy to explain cosmological structures. But even after
postulating this, there remain serious discrepancies. For example,
physicists are freaking out due to a gamma ray excess at the centre
of the Milky Way, and then there are neutrinos that seem to be
changing their form.
The phenomenon of entanglement in quantum physics, which has been
observed in many experiments, implies that objects that are far
removed in space (even across billions of miles) remain connected
even though there is no mediating agency. This action at a distance
without any explanation of the process underlying it represents a
big hole in our understanding of physical reality.
Then there is the problem of free will and intentionality which
cannot be explained either by physics or biology. Meanwhile, the
view that the biological organism is just a machine governed by the
genes has had to be revised drastically due to the discovery of the
epigenome. It brings the mind into the picture since experiments
have shown that behaviors, such as fear, aversion, or stress, can be
passed down the generations. We don’t know if the epigenome can pass
down other aspects of the personality.
The rise of scientific knowledge is a progression. We appear to be
going from what I call a B model of reality (for body in physics, or
brain in organisms) to a Bc model (with incidental consciousness or
mind). The B model assumes brain/mind identity, and it was the
orthodox position in neuroscience for a long time, just as it is the
orthodox position in physics. The Indian view of reality is a BcC
model (where the last C is consciousness as an independent entity).
Carl Jung through his idea of the collective unconscious tried to
provide an explanation for instincts and archetypes. But the logic
of this collective unconscious is not clear and it does not have the
same generality as the envisioning of consciousness in Indian thought.
The writings of Schrödinger are an excellent articulation of Indian
ideas by a scientist. Posing the problem of the split between
objects and subjects in Mind and Matter, Schrödinger says the
The reason why our sentient, percipient and thinking ego is met
nowhere within our scientific world picture can easily be indicated
in seven words: because it is itself that world picture. It is
identical with the whole and therefore cannot be contained in it as
a part of it. But, of course, here we knock against the arithmetical
paradox; there appears to be a great multitude of these conscious
egos, the world is however only one… There is obviously only one
alternative, namely the unification of minds or consciousnesses.
Their multiplicity is only apparent, in truth there is only one
mind. This is the doctrine of the Upanishads.
The skeptic would just call it one person’s opinion that should not
sway our minds, given that it was written a few decades ago. So is
there something else going on now that compels a new
outside-of-the-box look at entrenched views?
The fact that Indian epistemology accepts consciousness as an
independent provides a resolution to the seemingly insoluble problem
of interaction between the causally closed worlds of matter with the
world of consciousness.
New results in neuroscience of free will indicate that the
volitional act spring from the unconscious and the conscious mind
becomes aware of it only later, believing that the decision was made
by it. There seems to be a delay of a few hundred milliseconds in
which the conscious mind embraces the action started by the
unconscious and adopts it as its own.
In physics, which deals only with objects, sentient beings are
zombies. In it, it is not conscious will that causes actions at that
time. Rather, conscious will influences beliefs at a later time
which influence subsequent actions. Standard physics does not, and
cannot, explain the self who holds these beliefs. Since this self
cannot be an object or a process, we confront an enigma.
This brings us to the Veda of physics. By this I mean a framework
that explains not only the outer reality but also the observer. In
the past, the Vaiśeṣika school of Kaṇāda sought to do this in terms
of atoms and categories of which the observer is a part. What we
need now is a similar formulation that adds to the current
understanding of the physical world.
Some might say that the biggest challenge facing physics is the
explanation of dark matter and dark energy; I say it’s at the
foundations, to explain the observer and the self.
Bibliography
•Moore, W., 1989. Schrődinger: Life and Thought, Cambridge
University Press, Cambridge.
•Kak, S., 2015. The Wishing Tree: Presence and Promise of India.
Aditya Prakashan, New Delhi.
•Schrödinger, E., 1959. Mind and Matter, Cambridge University Press,
Cambridge.
Subhash Kak is Regents professor of electrical and computer
engineering at Oklahoma State University and a vedic scholar.
   Do you not know the Soviets invented everything first?
   Including Communism, of course....
DO YOU NOT KNOW that "America" and by extension "Western White
Christians" are the "Center Of The Universe"?
  Absolutely!
  That is because they *created* it.
Yep, in your and their "delusional brains".
Robert Baer
2019-03-18 17:24:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer
Post by FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer
Post by FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer
https://swarajyamag.com/books/the-veda-of-physics-reconciling-the-observer-and-the-observed
The Veda Of Physics: Reconciling The Observer And The Observed
by  Subhash Kak
  -  Dec 12, 2015, 12:30 pm
How can conceptions that came up several thousand years ago in
India be of relevance to modern physics?
It is increasingly accepted that Indian ideas have played a crucial
role in the development of modern science. We are not just talking
about the symbol zero, algebra and astronomy, but also inoculation
in medicine, the periodic table of chemical elements, and the field
of linguistics, to mention just a few.
But surely Indian ideas cannot be of any value now. The
progressives, like the colonialist followers of Macaulay in the
19th century, believe that there is nothing in the Indian tradition
that is worth anything. No wonder, our school curriculum contains
precious little about Indian wisdom. A few years ago on a visit to
BHU, I asked some postgraduate students if they had heard of the
Upanishads and they said no.
Anyway, how is it even possible for conceptions that came up
several thousand years ago to be of relevance now? The idea that
Indian knowledge might be of use to the modern physicist appears
ludicrous and delusional.
Thoughtful people are ready to grant Indian cultural contributions
to architecture, music, literature, fine arts, philosophy, and
perhaps to ancient science, but nothing more.
However there are some in India and beyond its borders who think
that Indian ideas have the potential to provide key insights for
progress of contemporary science.
The great 20th century physicist, Erwin Schrödinger, who
co-invented quantum theory, claimed in his autobiography that he
obtained his central intuition from the Vedas. This is a big deal
since quantum mechanics is the deepest theory of physics, and
without quantum theory one cannot understand chemistry, and without
chemistry one cannot understand biology and life.
Details of Schrodinger’s story may be found in my new book The
Wishing Tree and so I shall not repeat that material. In the words
“Schrödinger and Heisenberg and their followers created a universe
based on superimposed inseparable waves of probability amplitudes.
This new view would be entirely consistent with the Vedantic
concept of All in One.”
But are the parallels or analogies between Vedanta and quantum
theory merely coincidental and nothing new is to be gained from
Indian knowledge?
To answer this we must remember that physics as it evolved in the
last few centuries is exclusively about things in terms of objects
and their relationships. For example, the conception of the
classical universe is as clockwork. More recently, observers have
been brought in an ad hoc manner in relativity and quantum theory,
but physics cannot, by itself, explain them.
Now, in spite of all its great successes, physics is facing a
crisis since it appears to deal with only 5% of the observable
universe, and it must invoke an unobserved 95% of what is called
dark matter and dark energy to explain cosmological structures. But
even after postulating this, there remain serious discrepancies.
For example, physicists are freaking out due to a gamma ray excess
at the centre of the Milky Way, and then there are neutrinos that
seem to be changing their form.
The phenomenon of entanglement in quantum physics, which has been
observed in many experiments, implies that objects that are far
removed in space (even across billions of miles) remain connected
even though there is no mediating agency. This action at a distance
without any explanation of the process underlying it represents a
big hole in our understanding of physical reality.
Then there is the problem of free will and intentionality which
cannot be explained either by physics or biology. Meanwhile, the
view that the biological organism is just a machine governed by the
genes has had to be revised drastically due to the discovery of the
epigenome. It brings the mind into the picture since experiments
have shown that behaviors, such as fear, aversion, or stress, can
be passed down the generations. We don’t know if the epigenome can
pass down other aspects of the personality.
The rise of scientific knowledge is a progression. We appear to be
going from what I call a B model of reality (for body in physics,
or brain in organisms) to a Bc model (with incidental consciousness
or mind). The B model assumes brain/mind identity, and it was the
orthodox position in neuroscience for a long time, just as it is
the orthodox position in physics. The Indian view of reality is a
BcC model (where the last C is consciousness as an independent
entity).
Carl Jung through his idea of the collective unconscious tried to
provide an explanation for instincts and archetypes. But the logic
of this collective unconscious is not clear and it does not have
the same generality as the envisioning of consciousness in Indian
thought.
The writings of Schrödinger are an excellent articulation of Indian
ideas by a scientist. Posing the problem of the split between
objects and subjects in Mind and Matter, Schrödinger says the
The reason why our sentient, percipient and thinking ego is met
nowhere within our scientific world picture can easily be indicated
in seven words: because it is itself that world picture. It is
identical with the whole and therefore cannot be contained in it as
a part of it. But, of course, here we knock against the
arithmetical paradox; there appears to be a great multitude of
these conscious egos, the world is however only one… There is
obviously only one alternative, namely the unification of minds or
consciousnesses. Their multiplicity is only apparent, in truth
there is only one mind. This is the doctrine of the Upanishads.
The skeptic would just call it one person’s opinion that should not
sway our minds, given that it was written a few decades ago. So is
there something else going on now that compels a new
outside-of-the-box look at entrenched views?
The fact that Indian epistemology accepts consciousness as an
independent provides a resolution to the seemingly insoluble
problem of interaction between the causally closed worlds of matter
with the world of consciousness.
New results in neuroscience of free will indicate that the
volitional act spring from the unconscious and the conscious mind
becomes aware of it only later, believing that the decision was
made by it. There seems to be a delay of a few hundred milliseconds
in which the conscious mind embraces the action started by the
unconscious and adopts it as its own.
In physics, which deals only with objects, sentient beings are
zombies. In it, it is not conscious will that causes actions at
that time. Rather, conscious will influences beliefs at a later
time which influence subsequent actions. Standard physics does not,
and cannot, explain the self who holds these beliefs. Since this
self cannot be an object or a process, we confront an enigma.
This brings us to the Veda of physics. By this I mean a framework
that explains not only the outer reality but also the observer. In
the past, the Vaiśeṣika school of Kaṇāda sought to do this in terms
of atoms and categories of which the observer is a part. What we
need now is a similar formulation that adds to the current
understanding of the physical world.
Some might say that the biggest challenge facing physics is the
explanation of dark matter and dark energy; I say it’s at the
foundations, to explain the observer and the self.
Bibliography
•Moore, W., 1989. Schrődinger: Life and Thought, Cambridge
University Press, Cambridge.
•Kak, S., 2015. The Wishing Tree: Presence and Promise of India.
Aditya Prakashan, New Delhi.
•Schrödinger, E., 1959. Mind and Matter, Cambridge University
Press, Cambridge.
Subhash Kak is Regents professor of electrical and computer
engineering at Oklahoma State University and a vedic scholar.
   Do you not know the Soviets invented everything first?
   Including Communism, of course....
DO YOU NOT KNOW that "America" and by extension "Western White
Christians" are the "Center Of The Universe"?
   Absolutely!
   That is because they *created* it.
Yep, in your and their "delusional brains".
Good grief! Could you not tell that i was doing some leg-pulling?

If i was going to get nasty, i would demand "they" define what a
"Christian" is supposed to be.



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Byker
2019-03-18 18:47:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Baer
Post by FBInCIAnNSATerroristSlayer
DO YOU NOT KNOW that "America" and by extension "Western White
Christians" are the "Center Of The Universe"?
Absolutely!
That is because they *created* it.
Why was there was no Thai Leeuwenhoek, no Korean Galileo, no Chinese Newton,
no Indian Leibniz and no Turkish Tycho Brahe?

GREAT articles: https://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/3769

http://www.searchanddiscovery.com/documents/Hsu/newton.htm

http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2011/03/curious-civilization.html

"From the fourteenth until the twentieth century, almost all important
global advances in mathematics were European. I would be tempted to say that
European leadership was stronger in mathematics than in almost any other
scholarly discipline. Perhaps the simplest explanation for why the
Scientific Revolution happened in Europe is because the book of nature is
written in the language of mathematics, as Galileo once famously stated, and
Europeans did more than any other civilization to develop or discover the
vocabulary of this language.

"The introduction of the telescope was a major watershed in the history of
astronomy, but we should remember that it alone did not create modern
astronomy. The birth of astrophysics in the late nineteenth century came
through the combination of the telescope with photography and spectroscopy,
all inventions that were exclusively made in Europe. Spectroscopy could not
be developed until chemistry as a scientific discipline had been formed,
which only happened in Europe. New fuels, engines and materials later made
space travel possible. Asian rockets were powered by gunpowder and weighed a
couple of kilograms at most. They could not have challenged the Earth's
gravity and explored the Solar System. The Saturn V rocket that launched
Apollo 11 on its journey to the Moon in 1969 used liquid hydrogen and
oxygen, elements which had been discovered in Europe. The very concept of
gravity, too, was developed only in Europe. The exploration of the Solar
System and the universe at large was to an overwhelming degree made possible
by a single civilization alone, the Western one."
https://tinyurl.com/y74s54wr

Example: By the 13th century, both India and Europe had the water wheel. In
India, it was used to drive prayer wheels so Brahmins could be relieved of
the task of praying every day. In Europe, it was employed to power grinding
mills and eventually factories...

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